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excerpts from the sound correspondence
Subject: new ideas for sound
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:58:53 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Gordana Novakovic ,
cc: Zoran Milkovic
Hi again
I have been going back over some of my sound ideas for infonoise -
some were from 18 months ago I now realise - and while I am still
interested in some aspects I think it might be better to
reconsider everything in light of what has happened since.
In view of the new technical possibilities with java, I need
feedback about whether the ideas are useful or whether there is a
better way to think about them.
Zoran I'm not sure if I ever sent you my original sound proposal.
When I first made it, I did not know that the old java had
such poor support for sound. In short, my ideas would have been
difficult without using a native environment, but now with recent
advances in java, at least there is enough flexibility to create
something more interesting. This of course means using the new jmf
v2.0 which I understand only in a general sense.
Firstly I am very keen to use good quality sound samples, 16 bit
at 44.1kHz. This is always my first question, since anything else
produces a scratchy sound. It can be an advantage sometimes, but
I feel strongly the sound should be made with good quality samples.
My other, major question is how to make the sound work with the
rest of the processes in the installation. For instance, since the
projected texts will be moving around the moebius strip, I would
very much like to have the sound moving around also, though not
necessarily in the same way. If there IS some way to move the
sound towards the visitor - in the same way that the projected
texts will move - then I would be very keen to do it. (any
suggestions?)
And there are interdependencies. I understand that the motion
sensors will control the movements of the texts around the strip.
The sound control will also use the same sensors... So it would
help me to understand how the projections will detect the visitor.
I am very keen to use sound in the physical space which will mean
having multiple loudspeakers, and ways of controlling the panning
position and volume through the software.
My original idea was that each of the 6 computers would have their
left loudspeaker positioned in or under the moebius strip, and the
right loudspeakers would be quite far away from it, maybe mounted
on a wall. In this way, panning a (mono) sound left and right
would move it closer or farther away.
I still like this idea but am worried now about the speakers
themselves. I thought it could work with powered, multimedia-style
computer loudspeakers. But since I worked with them on a garden
installation piece last year, I am less impressed with their
capability.
Now I am thinking that four of the computers could have their
loudspeakers mounted inside the strip as before ( = 8 speakers).
The other two computers would be connected to four larger speakers
in the corners of the installation space. What we would need to be
able to do here is route a mono source to any of the 12
loudspeakers.
I don't know how feasible this is, however, since it would rely on
network processes. It would mean implementing a kind of sound
mixer that could route a variety of sounds to different
locations...
Anyway, I would like to get the process moving with these general
points, I will write more in the next few days but hopefully you
will have a chance to think about it and maybe give some feedback.
best wishes
Rainer
Subject: Re: new ideas for sound
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:06:34 GMT
From: "Zoran Milkovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
Hi Rainer,
I have carefully examined your last mail, and I will try now to
explain you how I think the whole thing should work. I do not know
yet how it will be done in detail, but the principle and the
organization - to speak only for the software - is rather clear to
me.
First, the installation will be made on a Local Area Network. It
means that we will have all the bandwidth we need to achieve a
high data transfer rate between the computers in the installation,
whatever their number is. That means we can use high quality audio
samples, and high resolution images - without the limitations of
the web project.
Second, I plan to organize the software on these computers as
"data processors", i.e. they will process the information
available from the LAN and produce adequate output by rendering
the input data.
For example, let's imagine a headline and a sound, and that they
are linked. This "package" has some attributes such as position,
level, zoom, timing, ... and whatever. This "package" (the right
word would be "object") is in fact a file on the LAN server,
containing all the data and references. These data change in time
(several times per second), and these changes are driven by the
sensors: the software on the server scans the sensors, detects
changes, tries to establish dependencies (motion estimation), and
generates or changes the content of the "packages" (objects),
updating them. Now, the other computers on the network only cover
a segment of the "space" of the installation. They keep examinig
the "packages" (reading the files), and when they detect that they
are "covering" the space the "package" enters, they start
"rendering" that object, taking account of its attributes.
Timing is of great importance, because sound (and animation) is a
temporal process and error in synchronization will produce
inacceptable results. Imagine playing the same sample on two
loudspeakers at different level to produce a panning effect, and
one of your loudspeakers starts playing the sound with a delay.
You start hearing two sounds instead of one. And in our
installation the sound could have started in a distant segment, so
we need a precise time reference to be able to produce the right
sample with the right timing. This is just to explain why we need
to define all the attributes we will ever need.
Now let's get back to your letter. Producing a stereo sound is
quite clear to me: you take a (mono) sample and send it to two
speakers at different levels, so anyone listening to it feels that
the sound source is somewhere between the two speakers. But this
is only true if the listener and the speakers make a triangle. If
you are in line with the speakers, I think you will have no sense
of the position of the sound (I may be wrong). Anyway, with the
concept of "objects" I tried to explain, this will be of no
concern.
The space of the installation (as far as the sound is concerned)
need not to be limited to the moebius strip, it can easily be
expanded to the whole room, by adding loudspeakers at some
distance away from the strip. We are not limited to 6 computers -
that figure was given just to fill a blank. We will use the number
of computers we feel will produce adequate sound for the
installation. The "video" part is more limiting: a larger number
of video projectors would be too expensive. Sound production is
much cheaper (don't get me wrong - I am talking of hardware!).
I met Gordana a couple of days ago, and I will meet her again this
afternoon. She will then see this letter - so if she has some
remarks, I will write it to you in my next mail.
Regards, Zoran
Subject: Re: new ideas for sound
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:21:07 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Zoran Milkovic
CC: Gordana Novakovic
Hi Zoran
thanks for your thoughts.
Yes I thought we would be working with a LAN, it seems the
sensible thing under these circumstances, with regard to data
rates, etc. Only I don't know much about LANs and what
limitations they would have under our plan.
> Second, I plan to organize the software on these computers
> as "data processors", i.e. they will process the information
> available from the LAN and produce adequate output by
> rendering the input data.
This also makes sense, I guess it means that the audio files
(or samples) will be loaded from the hard disk. DO you see any
problems with latency in this regard? What I have read about the
jmf soundplayers indicates a lot of time is needed (comparatively)
to prefetch, realize etc the players. This means there could be a
long latency between the time that the sensor is activated, and
when the sound starts playing.
> This "package" (the right word would be "object") is in fact
> a file on the LAN server, containing all the data and references.
I guess the specifics of each new object are created in
real time in response to the sensor triggers, and not just called
up from an array of ready made objects stored somewhere.
> you take a (mono) sample and send it to two speakers at different
> levels, so anyone listening to it feels that the sound source is
> somewhere between the two speakers. But this is only true if the
> listener and the speakers make a triangle.
yes that's right, but I think we have a problem using the term
"stereo". When I wrote about using the sound spatially, I didn't
mean to use the speakers as stereo pairs, but rather as single
point sources from which the sound can originate. So a mono sound
panned totally left comes out of the left speaker. As we pan it
towards the right it's not really a stereo sound, but simply the
it starts to come from a new physical source (R speaker), which
is positioned somewhere else. What happens in between this L-R
travel is not really stereo, but some strange kind of movement
effect that will depend on the positions of the speakers and the
listener as you say.
I'm glad you raised the possibility of playing a single sound on
two computers at the same time. This would enable the panning
effect but rather than thinking of it as a stereo condition, do
you think we might for instance, move a sound between six
loudspeakers, one after the other? This would give the kind of
movement flexibility that I tried to suggest.
What kind of parameters and variables do you think will be held in
the packages or objects that you have mentioned? I am trying to
think how closely we should link the sound and the headline
images, and to what extent they could still work independently, ie
in different combinations.
best wishes
Rainer
Subject: Re: new ideas for sound
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:10:35 +0200
From: "Darko Novakovic"
To: "rainer linz"
hi Rainer,
thanks for keeping me informed. i do enjoy your exchange. still
have nothing to add. met zoran yesterday, and have some clearer
idea. still, i cannot imagine the sound.
hope to meet Zoran soon again, and make some contribution myself.
best, Gordana
Subject: Re: new ideas for sound
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:52:52 +1000
From: rainer linz
To: Darko Novakovic
Hi gordana
yes, we are still working out some technical groundplans, I am
trying to understand how the sound could work with the image, etc,
and what programming limitations there may be and so on. I want to
suggest to Zoran that we could download audio material to use for
the piece. Like every night we could download more audio material
from certain sites and use that in the following day. if you look
at http://abc.net.au/am/ this is a news service with audio, for
instance. anyway, just a thought.
best
Rainer
Subject: Re: new ideas for sound
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:40:29 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Zoran Milkovic
Hi zoran
so I am still thinking about the best way to render the sounds for
the installation, and have been thinking in general about how best
to move the sounds around, that is, whether this is a viable
option. I need you to tell me whether any ideas are impractical,
or if there are better ways to do things, or if we need another
approach...
At this stage I think there are still a number of options for how the
sounds can move. In my last email i tried to imagine a ring of
loudspeakers with a single sound panning through all of them.
This, I now suppose, will mean synchronising the start of a sound
on all the channels, and adjusting the volume or pan to give the
impression of continuous movement.
I can't say if this is difficult or not. The main thing
is, there are still other options if it can't be done. The key
would be to arrange the speakers in the gallery space in such a
way as to give the impression of movement. Take for instance, a
row of four loudspeakers, arranged 1L, 2L, 1R, 2R. Computer 1 can
pan from 1R to 1L, computer 2 can pan from 2L to 2R. A person
standing in front of speaker 1R could hear a sound moving from 2R
to 2L. Technically the panning should be quite simple, but the
impression of movement will be more complex, since a sound panned
in the centre of 2L & 2R would appear to come from the same
position as 1R. There are many ways we can work with the space in
this manner. It's just a question of what is feasible. have you
had any more thoughts> cheers Rainer
Subject: Re: new ideas for sound
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:14:51 GMT
From: "Zoran Milkovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
Hi Rainer,
I have been spending a lot of time with Gordana, and there are a
lot of things we agreed upon, and should talk to you about. No
real changes to the concept, but just clarifications. But we'll
get to it later. Now I will answer the questions you are asking me
again and again - sorry for not answering them before.
> What is still unclear to me from your outline, is whether
> the sound files will exist on the LAN server, or whether
> they will be stored on the local computers' hard drives.
> What is the speed of data transfer in a LAN?
You should look to the LAN as just another
hard disk on your computer. Yes, it is a little slower than newer
hard disks, but you can acheive a transfer rate of several hundred
kilobytes per second, so it isn't so slow after all... If you have
at least two computers, you can try to connect them, all you need
is two network cards - an ISA card costs here 20DM (Aus$). Win311
(WFW) and W9x have all the support you need. I can explain you the
procedure to make it work. Interested?
> In my last email i tried to imagine a ring of loudspeakers
> with a single sound panning through all of them. This, I now
> suppose, will mean synchronising the start of a sound on all
> the channels, and adjusting the volume or pan to give the
> impression of continuous movement. I can't say if this is
> difficult or not.
No problem at
all. JMF has mechanisms for absolute synchonization of sounds,
including all the preparations to eliminate latency. There is also
Java3D, with a lot of interesting features...
> Take for instance, a row of four loudspeakers, arranged
> 1L, 2L, 1R, 2R. Computer 1 can pan from 1R to 1L, computer
> 2 can pan from 2L to 2R. A person standing in front of
> speaker 1R could hear a sound moving from 2R to 2L.
> There are many ways we can work with the space in this
> manner. It's just a question of what is feasible.
Anything can be done. Still, the most simple thing is to play the
same sound(s) from several computers, and to change volume levels
on all the channels to obtain the movement in space we want to
acheive. I will write you soon, with more info.
Best, Zoran
Subject: Re: new ideas for sound
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 08:35:58 +1000
From: rainer linz
To: Zoran Milkovic
Thanks Zoran
I will look into the LAN cards, i know they are quite inexpensive
these days...
Anyway, I am very keen to hear about your
discussions with Gordana. Please keep me informed. I have also had
some further ideas about the sound, namely the kinds of sound
samples I will prepare to use. In short, these are MIDI overflow
sounds created on a synthesiser by connecting the MIDI THRU to the
MIDI IN. This creates a feedback loop which goes into overload,
creating some fairly complex and interesting (I think) sounds,
that would also be appropriate for this piece. I will also send
more details tomorrow.
best wishes Rainer
Subject: Gordana is back in London
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:53:54 GMT
From: "Zoran Milkovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
CC: gordana.novakovic@virgin.net
Hi Rainer,
Now that Gordana has gone back to England, I'm returning to the e-
form of communication. I must say that eye to eye contact is
better. So, if everything goes well, we might see each other in
Paris in December. But there may be some obstacles, we'll see...
Now, about the things you wrote in your mail:
> Anyway, I am very keen to hear about your discussions with
> Gordana. Please keep me informed.
I'm sure that Gordana will write you as soon as she gets back to her
computer in London. She didn't open her mail while she was here.
So, I suppose she'll have a lot of it. We have been discussing the
whole project, and we agreed that the emphasis should not be on
the news, but rather on the invariance of the form of news, so
that when you're looking at the news, you don't notice that you
may be looking at some rather old news. It's always the same.
(I am oversimplifying the whole thing).
> In short, these are MIDI overflow sounds created on a
> synthesiser by connecting the MIDI THRU to the MIDI IN.
I'm not sure that MIDI overloading gives
the same results on diferent MIDI equipment. I'm not an expert on
that field, I have no experience of my own, but for as much as I
know, MIDI equipment tend to add some information if the MIDI
flow, that may create loss of some of the original message. But
this is a random process, and I suppose it gives quite
unpredictable effects.
If there is any chance to do it, I would
like you to send me a sample of this kind of sound. Make a .WAV
file, and then convert it to .MP3 (if you don't have the tools,
I'll see what I can do). One megabyte of MP3 may be a whole minute
of sound, with low compression loss of quality. In any case,
please keep it well below 1MBy, otherwise I will not be able to
get it - there is a limit in my account.
best wishes, Zoran
ps:
I will translate to english some of the texts I gave to Gordana, and
send it to you soon.
Subject: Re: Gordana is back in London
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:56:15 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Zoran Milkovic HI Zoran
thanks for your mail. Yes, I am looking forward to solving some of
the basic questions so that I can concentrate on the
detail and structure of the sound. What I wrote about the midi
overflow method of creating the sounds, I should have made it
clear that these sounds are created in the studio on midi
equipment, and then recorded into WAV format to be played as
ordinary samples. So the method of creating these sounds is very
"hands on", I will choose the ones I like and then prepare them
for use as samples. I had thought of sending an MP3 version of
something for you, I have to get hold of an MP3 encoder (I
have some shareware progs here, but have not tried them yet, not
all of them record at 44.1 kHz). Anyway I will look into this and
see what I can do.
And I hope we will be able to meet in Paris later this
year, I will find out more today about how likely it is. As you
may know, S is discussing the possibility of a
performance, if it happens then I will be invited to
assist, if not then I won't be there...
I have also been reading up on the jmf. I have the 1.2 version
here and have compiled some of the example programs. a video
player applet and so on.
cheers Rainer
Subject: sounds
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:41:48 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Zoran Milkovic
CC: Gordana Novakovic
Hi
here are a couple of the midi overflow sounds I wrote about
earlier. Sorry to send them as 44.1kHz samples, I have not yet
been able to get an MP3 encoder. Do you have any
suggestions about the best one to use? With these short samples,
if you loop-play them you will get an idea of what the continuous
sound is like. With the longer samples however the rhythms are more
subtle, and change a little over time.
The sounds themselves are quite complex and there is a strong
repetitive component which has to do with the length of the
synthesiser's buffer, and other random things can happen over time
as well. Hmmm... there are many different types of sounds that can
be drawn from the synthesiser in this way, but they all have
similar behaviours.
cheers Rainer
Subject: Re: back
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:47:50 +0100
From: "Gordana Novakovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
hi Rainer,
glad to hear you had a good time (and are back). i like very much
your sounds by themselves, and the concept. completely "in tune"
with the work in all, i am very happy with it. i was thinking of
some layer of "atmospheric" sound, if you know what i mean. not
maybe human voices (or maybe yes, not sure) - something of the
kind the orchestra produce before performance with authentic
murmur of audience, while getting in tune, you know what i mean,
sorry for clumsy explanation. (just small idea). Zoran sent me some
txts, but i still cannot concentrate.
best,
gordana
Subject: Re: back
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:37:29 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Gordana Novakovic
CC: Zoran Milkovic
Hi Gordana
I'm glad you liked the sounds I sent, as long as you know they
are only very short versions of longer sound samples... My idea is
to play a number of them at the same time, to make an even more
complex sound texture, that is also moving in detail around the
space. In a way, the sounds remind me also of signals, something
like morse code or satellite transmissions, sounds that appear to
have some meaning or intelligence but can't be decoded. I had
also thought of using voices, like I wrote to you some time ago,
but I don't think you were very interested in using voices at that
time.
To me, voices can be used with the headline texts that will be
projected onto the moebius. This does not mean that the voices
must speak the same headline texts which are projected, but
rather that many short, cryptic texts in the manner of headlines
can be used to present a different meaning. Anyway, you could
imagine a room full of people, all of them whispering, to give a
sense of this kind of sound. If the whispers are also moving
around the space, it will have the effect of a conversation that
you can only hear a few words from... In this way, the sounds like
I have already presented, and the voices/whispers, would complete
the installation sound.
The mail from mc5 is also very encouraging, in my view. It is
another example of how word spreads around, and also that
there are people with a genuine interest in the piece. In a way, I can
accept that people have problems with budgets, maybe they do or
don't have the money to install such a work, what I try to read
between the lines is a genuine interest and a desire to do
something with it. I don't know anything about mc5, but at
least they ask the right question first (ie, the budget!!!). what
do you think? rainer
Subject:
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:18:53 +0100
From: "Gordana Novakovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
CC: "Zoran Milkovic"
hi, thanks for this letter. it finaly gave me the idea how you see
the sound in total. i know this is very demanding concept
specially for you, regarding the nature of the sound compared to
image. for me, it was much easier - images do not mix and cumulate
in space, first of all. i was wondering all the time how you will
master this and other problems. so, congratulations! it looks
great to me! i did not want to expect anything in particular, and
now i am happy for this. i can imagine this sound, and find it
very sofisticated, but powerful at the same time, rich, with
refined elements...can't wait to hear it, simply. voices - i did
not dislike them, they were not on my mind, only. now, the work
has evolved, sure i am happy for it, and the whole thing is much
clearer to me. anyhow, i felt the need for some layer of "human"
origin, to connect it to the painted images. whispers - i like
that. very much. i feel so bad now that i will be away for 2
weeks, but i hope Zoran and you will keep the thing alive in the
meantime. tomorrow - holiday, like it or not! mc5 - i did
not know anything about myself as well, but also felt very
encouraged. however, i would like it much better to get real
support at some "smaller" (?) event, than to be in trouble in a
"big" one. i replied {sent them textual description and cost
details) and we will see. now it is for sure - it will BE
somwhere. maybe we should try tm - they can not complain
of small budget )
well, all my best till 14th,
gordana
Subject: Re: happy holidays
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 12:42:20 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Gordana Novakovic
Yes it's very difficult to give an exact description of the sound,
since I am very interested always in HOW the sound behaves, not
just in WHAT the sound is... So that a movement around the space
(which has yet to be determined) constitutes a kind of
behaviour.... Anyway, do you have some suggestions about how to
collect texts for the whispers? I feel that we should use texts in
different languages, and we should collect them from around the
world not just in Australia, so it would be good if some of our
friends could collect and send me a selection of newspaper
headlines according to some "rule" that may be useful - for
example all headlines in the first week of september, or some
such. Rainer
Subject: demo
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 10:03:16 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Zoran Milkovic
Hi again Zoran
I have heard from Gordana that she is going on holidays today,
some people are lucky... Anyway I have had a thought about how we
might go about a presentation...
I have decided in the end that I will get some networking
hardware, that way I can network my computers (a 486 and a
PII/450) and use this to demonstrate the movement of the
sound around the space as we discussed. Do you think it's possible
to make a demo program which would use two computers in this way,
with 4 loudspeakers (2 x stereo soundcards) and the sensors, to
demonstrate how the sound will move according to the sensor
information? This would make a great demonstration, without having
to network six computers as for the installation... If this could
be done, I would feel much happier about acquitting the project,
and justifying the spending of the grant. as always I look forward
to hear from you, and how you are going etc. best wishes Rainer
Subject: Re: demo
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 12:09:05 GMT
From: "Zoran Milkovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
Hi Rainer,
Sure I think it is possible to make the demo with two networked
computers, with a sound card each. I will even try to make it
using Java. Just in case, I will also make a Pascal program to
demonstrate all the details, if I get problems with Java
(accessing hardware is not straightforward). I have asked Gordana to
check the text I have written about the project, but she had no
time to do it. So I will send you this draft in my next mail. We
had some problems with a hard disk at work, and the text is on it.
I think I have a backup somewhere, and I will try to find it. I
will write you on monday. best regards, zoran
Subject: Re: demo
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 07:54:08 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Zoran Milkovic
Hi Zoran
I am looking forward to reading the text you have written - please
send it in whatever form you have... meanwhile, I have finally got
some network cards, but of course it is not as simple as it could
be.
In the meantime I am looking at a PC card type network interface,
(PCMCIA) for my laptop. I have decided on a 10/100 Mb system,
people are suggesting I should also get a network hub to connect
everything together. I have the cards but no cables yet, mainly
because I was advised to get a hub, and I am still thinking about
it... As I mentioned, I tried to get your TOMPG program working
without success, so I have dowloaded a program called CDEX which
should do the same thing. Anyway, these things are still happening,
and I will send some longer sounds soon. best wishes rainer
Subject: Re: demo
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 09:34:43 GMT
From: "Zoran Milkovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
Hi Rainer,
here's the text I told you about: The principle of viewer motion
detection is based on statistical information processing. These
informations are in fact the states of Passive InfraRed detectors
(PIRs) placed under the central object (a Moebius-shaped strip).
Let's consider a group of three detectors, the middle one being
activated. By monitoring the state of the left and right detector
one may conclude in which direction the viewer is moving. This is,
of course, not always true: the neighbouring detector might be
activated by another event, not necessarily by the movement of the
viewer that has activated the middle one. But, statistically
looking at the whole installation space, the gathered informations
will MOSTLY be accurate.
For this to be true, there must be a large number of PIR detectors,
with a short reaction time. The software for motion analysis makes
a time-based acquisition of the detectors state, and tries to establish
a relationship in the order in which the detectors are activated and to
adapt the "movement" of the objects (both visual and aural) in the
installation space.
There is no direct link between the state of the detectors and the
motion of objects - the relationship is established by applying the
results of the analysis to the parameters of the movement of
objects, the destruction (disappearance) of old objects and the
creation of new ones. This indirect correspondence between the
statistical (average) motion of the viewer and the motion of objects
on the scene provides an additional indetermination, thus disabling
the viewer to willingly affect the events, and adds "noise" to the
interaction.
The installation software will be written in JAVA programming
language (Java2, Standard Edition), with additional packages
Java3D and JavaMedia Framework. The application will run on PCs
with Windows9x operating system. Some of the routines for PIR
detectors state acquisition will be written in another programming
language (such as C), and linked with the main application through
the Java Native Interface. The computers are networked, so all the
informations necessary for the operation of the installation are
located on one of them, the one in charge for the detectors state
acquisition, and the rest of the computers access it through the
network to find the data necessary for their operation.
Best regards,
Zoran
Subject: Re: demo
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 13:12:27 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Zoran Milkovic
Hi again
thanks for your mail. Your description of how the motion sensors
work is quite logical. Unfortunately we cannot assume that only
one person will be in the space at any time, so that any
"prediction" of motion paths must be statistical in the sense that
you have described.
> For this to be true, there must be a
> large number of PIR detectors, with a short reaction time.
So, how many detectors do you think we'll need? And is there a special
type of detector which has a short reaction time? I know that some
PIRs can be adjusted in their "on" times, but then if a person
just stands in front of them, they continuously switch on and
off... Some kind of routine that would sense a person repeatedly
triggering the same detector could be useful also. Although under
what circumstances that might work...
Is it possible that with say, 12 sensors, there would be 12 headlines
and 12 sounds moving about? best wishes rainer
Subject: motion detection
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 10:53:46 GMT
From: "Zoran Milkovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
Hi Rainer,
The reason why I mentionned "large number of sensors" is just to
justify the statistical approach of motion detection. The "short
reaction time" is to obtain lots of data to process. There are a
lot of scenarios in which the motion detection process will give
erroneous results, but that's the best we can do without having to
put a camera and process its picture to detect everyone's motion
(that would be impossible to do with today's technology!). We are
not making an absolute detection system, but an installation with
all its imperfections. The goal is not to demonstrate
technological achievments, but to make an interesting piece of
art. Meanwhile, I haven't done anything yet with the demo, we are
now in the process of changing the hardware at work: I have now a
PIII (500) with 128MBy, and am expecting another one in the next
couple of days. Please tell me the deadlines for the demo. It will
be then much easier to me to get to work. all the best, zoran
Subject: Re: motion detection
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 07:44:55 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Zoran Milkovic
Hi Zoran
I understand that motion detection is a complex problem, and I
would never suggest a camera system in million years.
It seems to me that even if the system makes a good guess
about what is happening (ie what the visitors are doing and where
they are going) the response needs to be consistent but also
complex and interesting. As you say we are not demonstrating
technology, we are making an artwork.
How many headlines do you think can be projected at one time
onto the moebius strip? Does this relate directly to the number of
sensors, or the number of computers, or is the upper limit
determined in some other way like bandwidth for instance?
So, I could imagine say, 12 sensors but only maximum six
headlines, and six independent streams of sound... Or with 12
sensors, should I be thinking about (max) 12 simultaneous streams
of sound? Ultimately this is a bandwidth problem, and I am trying
to get an idea of how much to expect... Just aside, I am also
looking forward to using quite long samples in this piece, rather
than short (1-second) samples that are continuously looped. The
streaming aspect of java media is a good opportunity to use some
longer sounds.
Now that you have a PIII computer everything should be working
much faster ha ha.
best wishes Rainer
Subject: mp3
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:25:57 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Gordana Novakovic
CC: z_milkovic@hotmail.com
Hi again
here is a little excerpt of some of the midi sounds I have been
working with... This one is almost like a folksong... I don't know
if this particular sample is suitable for the installation, but again,
it has the characteristics that I mentioned before - quite a complex
(and subtle) rhytmic interplay with a quasi random element as
well.. This longer sample shows the variety of the sound, rather
than a short sample looping continuously as I sent before. cheers
Rainer
Subject: Re: mp3
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:38:02 +0100
From: "Gordana Novakovic"
To: "rainer linz"
hi!! thanks for mp3, i do like it. the rhythm, or those
interruptions just ones you get used to it, those subtle changes,
and the melody - yes, that is it. i liked "small" ones as well. it
is now clear that there is a great possibility, or variety of it.
i will try to think more. maybe i could send you some of my
national music, if you wish? (just if you feel like, this is not
even a suggestion).
i am still not clear whether you want to follow the
layers of the visual, or on the contrary - not, developing
something else. it is all up to you, sure. but it will help me in
thinking of it and making eventual comments. you might have told
me. i am not sure now . i liked very much the sounds on the first
piece on your cd.
but, as i said, will think more. i am still "camping" in the new flat,
waiting for the furniture, almost unpacked so far, but not all in
normality. soon, i do hope.
as for i, i am not surprised you are confused with the
terms, i went a number of times to their website to catch the point.
so, finally (IF!) our "infnoise" is accepted for 30 min
presentation, and my paper in theory category is, thank
god, rejected in last circle. i have got their info on lodging, so
i will fwd it you as well.
how is your work with S advancing? any news on your tarvelling
to paris? in the meantime, i was thinking a bit of the way of
presenting our work, but later on it.
best, Gordana
Subject: Re: mp3
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:46:27 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Gordana Novakovic
Hi gordana
Im glad the mp3 arrived OK... I'm not used to sending such big
attachments. I also sent a copy to zoran which bounced back...
I would like to work out some kind of movement scheme for the
sounds in the installation, but am still undecided exactly how. The
sounds should approach the visitor, but they can also disappear
again more easily than the texts (which must be read), in other
words a more intricate movement scheme would be possible. I am
thinking that when a visitor triggers a detector, a sound will
start from the opposite side of the sculpture and move around to
the "front" where the visitor is standing. From there it might move
around the two or three adjacent loudspeakers, then fade away
again to the other side of the sculpture.
I imagine it being quite dynamic in movement like this. Because
the small computer-type loudspeakers have very poor quality in
sound, my original idea was to have a parallel sound system with
4 bigger loudspeakers (one in each corner of the room).
The work with S has reached a pause and I haven't heard any
more news. Please keep sending me your developing thoughts
about the presentation of the work
best wishes Rainer
Subject: Re: try again
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:51:56 GMT
From: "Zoran Milkovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
Hi Rainer,
I like the sample you sent. Never mind the longer one, this one
gave me the idea of what it will be. If you ever need to send me a
longer sample, you can always split it into parts and send it in
pieces. Or we can share an address on the net (all we have to do
is exchange passwords, and we will all three have access to some
disk space (there are locations that give up to 20MBy of storage
space, I can find their addresses if necessary). Best wishes,
Zoran
Subject:
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 12:19:22 +0100
From: "Gordana Novakovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
CC: "Zoran Milkovic"
hi Rainer,
as i have said, i would like to start from the begining, for
myself mostly. the main thing to define now seems to be movement
and it's nature, i think. the image/projection is divided into 3
segments:
1- dreamscape. it has very slow movement along the
sculpture, almost unnoticable. only in a while you can notice that
it has changed viewing from the very same point.
2- ouroboros (wire shaped snake). it's movement is the result of
algorithm, so it is a bit strange, and constant. naturaly, since it
represents eternity, etc. i think you can use it also for generating
some level of sound. it is very simple (and old) program for
geology. if you wish, Zoran can (i hope) send it to you, i have lost
it in all my movings. you might use it somehow.
3- headlines. they are floating in some random movement, and
"confusing" using the old computer "game of life". this structure
might also be of some use for you. i like very much your idea of
more complex way of moving the sound through the space. it will
add more dynamics to the event. and yes, the advantage that sound
is more, hm, flexible then the image should be taken. 4 loudspeakers
- of course, it is already in our technical description, as far as i
remember.
Subject: Re: try again
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:19:34 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Zoran Milkovic
Hi zoran
thanks for the message. I am still working on the sound samples
and have been discussing some possible movement schemes with
gordana. I mentioned that the sound movement could be more active
than the movement of the headlines.
I suggested a scheme where, for instance, when a visitor
triggers a sensor, a sample will start playing on the opposite side
(back) of the moebius sculpture, and move quickly to the front where
the visitor is standing (? as we discussed). From there it could
move around the two adjacent loudspeakers in a sort of "dance" in
front of the visitor. this was just an idea.
regarding the movement of the images, gordana replied
> 2- ouroboros (wire shaped snake). its movement is the result of
> algorithm, so it is a bit strange, and constant. naturaly, since it
> represnts eternety, etc. i think you can
> use it also for generating some level of sound. it is very
> simple (and old) program for geology. if you wish, Zoran can (i
> hope) send it to you, i have lost it in all my > movings. you
> might use it somehow. >
I think this is the shape that is moving
around the moebius in the web applet? It makes sense to me to
relate this in some way to the sound as well. As for sharing web
space, I thought we had an address for this already, but have not
been using it... I haven't tried any of the web hosting services
like this, I understand they all have advertising etc...
hope things are going well cheers Rainer
Subject: Re:
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:19:38 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Gordana Novakovic
Hi gordana
It seems I am still discovering things about this installation!
Many thanks for sending your thoughts about the movement. What you
have written about the movement of the images is familiar to me
from the web-based piece, but for instance, I thought the
dreamscape would be "painted" onto the moebius sculpture in the
gallery, and not projected onto it. Now it is clear to me.
I like the idea very much, of having a slowly-moving dreamscape
projected on the strip. It makes for a very strong connection with the
web piece, and will also lend a type of dynamism to the installation.
The ouroborous is the wire-frame image that is moving around the
strip. So this will be present in the gallery as well.
Great. And as for the headlines, I wonder if their positions should
be governed by the sensors trigger after all, rather than a random
movement as you suggest. Its easy to imagine all of these
movements (and the sound as well) happening in a quasi random
way, but I feel it still needs to be sourced in some way from the
sensors. the responses do not have to be strictly one-to-one.
So instead of saying that the headline (or the sound) will move
directly toward the sensor that has been triggered, it will rather move
"around" the sensor in a slightly unpredictable way, based on the
statistical processing that zoran wrote about. This way it seems to
have a life o\f its own while still responding to the presence of the
visitors. I'm not explaining it very well, it's also late at night
here. I guess what I am trying to indicate is that the piece can
have a type of behaviour, rather than being a moving but repetitive
(and so static) object... So I am trying to imagine how it might
behave...
Yes, the four larger speakers were in the original specs,
I mentioned them again to make sure they were still there...
So physically there will be two louspeaker systems, one with 8 or
so smaller loudspeakers around the moebius and 4 larger speakers in
the corners of the gallery space. The method of playing sounds
over these loudspeakers is the same - two computers will drive the
larger speakers, four computers will drive the smaller ones. All
are networked which means it should be possible even to move the
sounds from around the strip to around the room.... Anyway there
are more possibilities, important for me is to find the correct
combination of possibilities so that everything can make sense to
the visitor. hope all is well
Rainer
Subject: headlines behaviour
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:43:01 +0100
From: "Gordana Novakovic"
To: "rainer linz"
CC: "Zoran Milkovic"
Hi Rainer,
well, sometimes i am dying for 2 hours of "live exchange"
with you. we will avoid situations, more bad explanations of mine
:( that i asume you know, but...) anyway, lets go on. i am very
happy with all your comments. in spite of all, seems we are in the
same "tune". i am glad that your suggestions are exactly as it is
supposed to be, if i did not misunderstand you. about behaviour
of headlines. this segment of projection (whole "image" will be
also "illusion" - projected changable combination of 3 levels
simultaneously, digested by networked PCs) will actually have its
autonomous behaviour according to the rules of the software (old
computer game "of life").
it means that they will have one way of "playing" among
themselves (moving allong in some sort of game,
not at all linear stream). the sensors, while triggered, will
interrupt the movement in its area and the "play", movements in
all directions by the rules of software, will turn into chaotic
mess, always different, making always new combimnation of
headlines, thus creating noise. so, all in all, it will be vagely
readable.
it will be more an idea of headlines, or flashes. alike having
a glance at tv sets in the shop window while walking the
street, i suppose (who knows how it will REALLY look like?). that
is why i think we can make prints of all headlines in random line
for visitors to take on the exit, perhaps) please let us continue
this "vivisection" of the work. it will help me to clarify all.
and i think it gives you firmer frame for your work. i will send
this to Zoran as well, so that he can correct me on "things" - hm,
confusion in belgrade, this morning my home (container) is
supposed to arrive at this place...worried and happy, waiting,
waiting.... and you? best, Gordana
Subject: Re: headlines behaviour
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:03:32 +1000
From: "Rainer Linz"
To: Gordana Novakovic
HI gordana
thanks for your reply. Yes, the autonomous behaviour of the
headlines, interrupted by the arrival of visitors, is very
compatible with the idea for sound. This type of behaviour can
also be used by the sound, in terms of movement in space. In a
basic sense the same parameters would control the sound and the
images, which is the kind of connection I am always pleased to
see.
Some direct comparisons would be: - selection of which
headlines to project
- > selection of which sounds to play - number of headlines
projected at any time = (minimum to maximum)
- > number of sounds playing at any time = (min to max number) -
weighted random ( = "life" rules) movements in space
- > similar movements of sound in space. - autonomous headline
behaviour interrupted by visitors
- > autonomous sound behaviour interrupted by visitors.
there are other similarities, that is to say direct comparisons,
that can be made between the sound and image behaviour. Maybe we
could draw up a list of those parameters that can be shared, and
in this way devise an overall strategy for how to manage these
"resources". Also I think it is important to be able to
(automatically) turn down the volume of the sound, when no
visitors are present.
This is first of all to save the gallery staff in the space from
having to hear it every hour of every day (eventually they will
turn it down - or off - themselves).
I have been following the news of the elections in belgrade, it
sounds like more of the same..? Maybe you were lucky to get your
belonging out, at this time... Anyway I hope everything arrived OK,
There is something cleansing about moving all of one's belongings
to another place but I don't think I could do it!
best wishes Rainer
Subject: snake
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:35:05 +0100
From: "Gordana Novakovic"
To: "Rainer Linz"
hi again. i was thinking of starting with the "snake". yes, you
are right. this the sample that Zoran sent you long ago (wire).
for me, this is also very important part. it is constant, out of
interaction, autonomous. it has it's own independent "life". i
would be very happy if you felt like in a way detecting, or
depicting the sound from snakes's schema. for me, with all those
atributes of ouroboros, it represents rational, cerebral, let's
say - mathematical way of thinking. it might be, somehow a bit
transformed, or not, the sound for installation in idle mood,
perhaps. what do you say? i got a message from Zoran, saying that
he is following the exchange with "comprehension and without
remarks, so far" ;)
cheers, gordana
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